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Thu, Oct. 27th, 2005, 02:52 pm
smoothie929: Confederate Battle Flag Debate

It has been forever since anyone posted...

                          

For all of you LSU people or other interested parties,

What do you think of LSU speaking out about the purple and gold confederate battle flag?  Should it be banned even that would be a 1st amendment violation?  Should showing it be discouraged, or is it just another symbol of LSU?  Is talking enough or does direct action need to be taken?  Is it an issue that really needs to be addressed or is it incredibly trivial and pointless?  Should the chancellor, SG, and other parties publicize their stance?  What's your opinion of it; let me know what you think...

Thu, Oct. 27th, 2005 10:44 pm (UTC)
ladylion1130

Because the school is a state run institution, I don't think it should be school sanctioned. However, if individuals want to use it, then that is there choice. Just like those who protest it have the right to do so.

Thu, Oct. 27th, 2005 11:35 pm (UTC)
skullxleader

One of the questions we need to ask is does it fit into any of these areas: Sedition, Obscenity, Libel, or slander. Yet I ask is the purple and gold version of the flag the same as the actual rebel flag? Look at the Tibetan good luck charm if rotated and flipped is a Nazi swastika. Are we becoming so fragile as a people that we can’t even handle seeing something even remotely like something we fear, condone or hate? Shouldn’t we be able to see past such things?

As for LSU’s stance on the subject I think they’ve done the right thing by saying they don’t condone the flying of the flag but won’t stop it. Trying to actually stop it would probably cause more trouble then letting it fly. Yet letting it fly is causing problems too, still how many of you actually noticed the flag till it was brought up in the news? Could it be possible that they are actually fueling the fire they fight?

Fri, Oct. 28th, 2005 02:07 am (UTC)
dr_cayenne

It's pretty clear there is a direct relation between the purple and gold confederate battle flag, compared to the traditional rebel flag. If I were to paint a purple fleur de lis on a yellow flag, it would not lose its inherent French-ness just because it was emblazoned with LSU colors.

Furthermore, if I were to take this fleur de lis, and throw a bald eagle in front of it, while one might associate this symbol with the boy scouts. So, it would be easy to associate France to have something to do with the boy scouts simply because of their symbol. In fact, there was actually some scrutiny about the boy scout symbol because of its association with martial power...
http://www.troop125bsa.com/emblem.htm
Anyways, the point being is that symbols do have associated meanings and equivelance to words. For example, if I were to hold up an american flag, people might interpret this as saying something like, "I love America".

If I were to hold up a red flag with a white circle with a red swastika in the center of it, people might interpret this as saying something like, "Kill all jews."

So if I hold up a purple and gold confederate battle flag, what would you interpet that as if you were black?

Fri, Oct. 28th, 2005 04:00 am (UTC)
phoam

...you might as well take down the Christian cross because it is a symbol of the decay of Native American society. Same with the US flag. If I flashed swastika around, what would you think of me without knowing any history behind the symbol except for when the Nazi's adopted it? The symbol even predates the Ankh.

How about a swastika LSU flag with "strength and power" written on it? Not many people know what a swastika represents: strength, power, sun; not killing Jews. Same goes for the Southern battle flag. Not many people know the true history behind it. They just see it as a symbol of the slavery of Africans. Well I don't blame them because that's basically what the war was about. ..but you know what? Aren't we all slaves of the system (the Man) right now? We are just numbers to the government. We wake up in the morning, work for money because [money = power], and spend free time as you will, but look where most of your time went--work, because [money = power].

When all people of this young nation can finally look past the color of one's skin, there will be progress. Dwelling on the past is not progress. Taking into account mistakes made in the past and focusing on the now and the future is progress.

Fri, Oct. 28th, 2005 05:00 am (UTC)
dr_cayenne

Just because you fly a swastika with the words, "Strength and Power" on it, doesn't prevent it from being obscene. A common modern interpretation of both the rebel flag and the swastika is racism and hatred. If I were to say, "I keep my bitch in line," and then assured you I meant I have a well trained poodle, would this make my statement any less offensive?

Fri, Oct. 28th, 2005 05:16 am (UTC)
recspecz

The flag is associated with racism not because of the Civil War itself but because of the Ku Klux Klan (KKK). The Stars and Bars was the banner they flew to show their extreme pride in what they believed.

It is worth noting that the Civil War was not all about slavery. Certainly slavery played its part. The South felt as if they were having to defend themselves from the terrany of the North and their abolitionist movement. Afterall, slave labor was the backbone of the aggregarian-based economy.

Anyways, this isn't about Civil War history. Did the men who flew it during the Civil War see it as a symbol to keep slavery? No. They saw it as a symbol of protecting state rights and of re-establishing the democratic government they felt the US had lost. It was a symbol of pride.

Anyways, back to my opinion. Do the flags do anyone harm? They are not paraded in the streets. They are not flown above the American flag. Peope fly them out of tradition and pride for southern heritage and history, perhaps maybe to honor a long lost relative who fought valiently for the Confederate States of America. I say let them fly it.

If people associate the flag to rascism and demand to ban it, then they ought to consider this point of view. The cross with an X across the center is a symbol of Scientology (picture below). It is refered to as an eight-pointed cross representing the eight dynamics of human life. The four-pointed cross, however, is associated with Christianity. On first glance, I am pretty sure anyone seeing the Scientology cross would assume at first Christianity. However, upon closer inspection of the symbol, you would realize it is not the Christian cross but a more spruced up version.


Cross of Scientology


Christian Cross

The parallels are mind-boggling, in my opinion. The protestors view the Purple and Gold Stars and Bars as the apparent symbol of rascism much like many would upon first glance mistake the two crosses. It is those individuals who can take that second look and see to themselves the difference between what was originally thought and that which the person truly believes the symbol represents.

Fri, Oct. 28th, 2005 05:26 am (UTC)
recspecz

The last paragraph ought to say this:

The parallels are mind-boggling, in my opinion. The protestors view the Purple and Gold Stars and Bars as the apparent symbol of rascism much like many would upon first glance mistake the two crosses. It is those individuals who can take that second look and see to themselves the difference between what was originally thought and that which the person truly believes the symbol represents who are able to make compromise. It is also only those individuals who wish to listen to the other side who could attempt compromise.

Fri, Oct. 28th, 2005 06:03 am (UTC)
dr_cayenne

If you draw a man on the second cross, is it no longer a christian cross?
(Deleted comment)

Fri, Oct. 28th, 2005 04:36 pm (UTC)
phoam

I don't think it should be an official symbol of LSU, though.

Fri, Oct. 28th, 2005 05:49 pm (UTC)
rmsisson

Every army of the Confederacy had different flags -- flags for battle, flags for garrison, flags for different units, etc. The first national flag, the "Stars and Bars," looked like this:



So why is that one flag, the Confederate battle flag, so hated? I honestly don't think it's because it represents racism and black oppression -- I think it's because the Ku Klux Klan adopted it as its flag.

Like skullxleader said, I guarantee you that you can go to an LSU football game and ask every single person who's flying the purple-and-gold flag and ask them why they're flying it, and not one will say, "Because I hate black people."

I think that when talking about what to do about the purple-and-gold flag, what it comes down to is freedom of speech. Just because someone thinks that the flag equals racism doesn't mean that they can tell other people that they are forbidden from displaying that flag. Using that line of reasoning, I could see someone displaying the modern flag of the US Army flag and say, "The Army massacred Indians in the West during the 1800s. I demand that you take that flag down!"

But this goes further than just if the flag is racist or not. It's an indication of the victim mindset of the black culture. The victim mindset says that there's always someone out to get them; the cards are inherently stacked against them; life will be hard just because they are black; the United States, and especially the South, are racist, and that's just the way it is. Polls have shown time and time again that that is the mindset of the black community. And until that mindset is changed, I think that this issue over the Confederate flag will continue.

Fri, Oct. 28th, 2005 06:57 pm (UTC)
phoam

In my opinion, it's going to take a very long time for the mindset to change. How long did it take the Jews to end oppression in ancient Egypt? About 5000 years from Mena to Cleopatra.

Fri, Oct. 28th, 2005 10:02 pm (UTC)
dr_cayenne

If life has taught me anything, it's that people are full of bullshit.

Here's an experiment for you. Go up to the same group you were going to ask about the flag, and instead introduce yourself by staring at the flag and troll them with, "Yeah, fuckin' niggers!" (You might want to consider who you are before using this troll)

Fri, Oct. 28th, 2005 10:36 pm (UTC)
rmsisson

That would be a very interesting experiment, but probably for different reasons that you think. I think most people who you did that to would be shocked to hear you say that and wouldn't approve. But I'm certainly not going to do the experiment, so if someone else does, let me know how it goes.

Fri, Oct. 28th, 2005 07:07 pm (UTC)
smoothie929: Ole Miss

From my understanding of the situation, the purple and gold confederate flag was not drawn up to show the southern pride associated with the general stars and bars flag. Everyone knows that Ole Miss is the rebels and that one of their symbols is the confederate battle flag. Painting the flag purple and gold was an attempt to mock Ole Miss. We already tell them to go to hell... so this is just one more element to add to LSU's long standing dislike of Ole Miss.

In this situation, I think it has the symbolism of "Screw Ole Miss" and I think that is something almost every LSU student can stand behind... regardless of their color. Symbolism is situational, and this flag was adopted in mockery, not in hatred of the black community, and it should be treated as such.

I think that this is one of many issues that the black community is focusing on that is not bettering their cause for equality. I think this is a trivial battle compared to other issues. If they put as much passion, and effort into other key areas that truly have an effect on their daily lives they could really make a difference. Part of this difference is educating people, but there is a better means of education.

I think in this case, the argument is unfounded. Instead of promoting unity through understanding, the situation is only dividing people more than they were before. If we continue to focus on our differences, if we continually attempt to cater to and please everyone and no one at the same time by being politically correct all the time, and if we continually focus on the past there will continue to be a division. There must be a more productive way of raising awareness about an issue that truly matters, and not over a flag that is mocking Ole Miss.

Sat, Oct. 29th, 2005 06:14 pm (UTC)
rmsisson: Re: Ole Miss

That is the first time I had ever considered the fact that the flag just mocks Ole Miss. Interesting.

Sat, Oct. 29th, 2005 09:07 pm (UTC)
phoam: Re: Ole Miss

Yea.. thanks for noting that.

Sun, Oct. 30th, 2005 08:18 am (UTC)
c22heloknight

This debate is really amusing to me. You get a good idea of what the fuck from reading it.

So, can I be arrested if I walk up to a stranger and say, "Jesus fucking Christ, I hope you choke on that cock before you swallow it!"

What about a ticket? Say $50 payable to EBR Parish?

I'd like to call that kind of obsenity an articulated ejaculation lol. That amuses me. Okay, so say we have the crime of "Articulating an Ejaculation."

Do you think there's a problem with it? We can stick it into the Revised Statutes. It'll read:
***
Sec. 30.2 Articulating an Ejaculation.

A. Articulating an ejaculation is the intentional articulation of any substantivly ejaculatory statment, comment, fact, or other expression of an idea.

B. Whoever commits the crime of articulating an ejaculation shall be fined up to $50 or imprisoned, with or without hard labor, for up to 60 days, or both.
***
This puts it around the murder statutes. That would be so fucking cool.

So, we have the malicous legislature in on things in my world. So, if I have a rebel flag done up in LSU colors, have I committed the crime of "Articulating an Ejaculation"?

So far so good, right?

Okay, so what if I articulate an ejaculation to my boss. Fined? Imprisoned? Hard labor? Sonds good.

Now, what's up with that First Amendment bullshit? Fuck man, I am ENTITLED to say anything I goddamn well please. It's a free country. It's AMERICA. When Ben and Jeff and Maddy drew up the Bill of Rights way back then, they had insane people like me in mind. Jimmy said to Jeff, "Hold on there tiger, we have to make sure that people can't ever be guilty of articulating ejaculations. And you know how important ejaculation is to me."

And that's how we got the Fist Amendment.

But wait. I ought to be entitled to piss on the side walk. If you arrest me for pission on the sidewalk, you have violated my constitutionally protected rite to freedom of expression. My urine is a goddamn work of art, and it's adding value to the city. Jesus, the po-po should just thank me, and walk on by. I'm going to sue the city to recover the value I added to its sidwalks and road ways with all of my defication.

So, let's do an experiment. Comment on the numbered items:

1. Sam am I.
2. fly
3. fly hot dog
4. shit fly
5. Am is are was were beng been

What do these things mean? They're symbols, right? Do they mean anything to anyone outside of your eccentric little world?

How about a drawing? Is a letter a drawing? Are strings of letters temporal arrangments of information? Do symbols possess the same qualities as words?

Jesus, I don't know. Do you think I buy any of the crap I've just written?

Sun, Oct. 30th, 2005 08:53 am (UTC)
smoothie929

You make me seem like I am normal, not random, and completely sane. Thank you for thinking that your waste contributes to the betterment of society... and this community... as opposed to the decline in well being of the public in direct result of your defecation. I certainly hope you do not believe half of what you've written. Yes, we all have 1st amendment rights, but in contracting to the government we give up some of our personal rights (such as urinating on the concrete) for the government's protection. This is the reason we submit to laws in the first place. Furthermore, the law you proposed would be unconstitutional based upon the first amendment and freedom of speech.

Sun, Oct. 30th, 2005 10:16 pm (UTC)
phoam

I like this.

Sun, Oct. 30th, 2005 10:15 am (UTC)
c22heloknight: Hoping this is not a double post

If people can display confederate flags, I am entitled to public urinatin.

At least, the logic of first amendment rights leads me to conclude that the previous statement is completely legitimate. The underlying principle is the same: lack of power to censure one behavior creates an entitlement to engage in another.

The Constitution forbids the federal government from interfearing with my "freedom of expression." So, I am good to go when I want to engange in rediculous conduct since all conduct is an expression of my ideas.

I think that if people were to see my urinating on the street, more people would come to the intersection where I'm urinating. The spectical would generate fees for the city. They could tax the proceeds. The public schools would be fixed and eternal bliss would result. My piss is gold, and it's beautiful. It's art. The French love to see people pissing on cobbled streets. Tourism will rise because people will come from the far corners of the world to watch me drink more water so that I can prosecute my endevor to better the world.

Or it could be that in fact, people will not go into the businesses located around my urin stain. People will not pay to see me pee. Tourists will laugh and point. People will be frightned of me and wonder if I'm drunk. Property values in the area will depreciate. Business will go away, and the city will lose taxable fees.

Even though some people, such as myself, find public urination to be wonderful exhibitions of performance art. Hmm. Well, I suppose we can't criminalize this behavior or hold you lible in tort because some people just really value the public urination bit.

So, we can't criminalize the display of a symbol lots of people associate with hatred because our "federal" government is forbiden to do so. Thus, you are entitled to do it.

And you're entitled to articulate ejaculations.

And you're entitled to walk on the sidewalk.

And you're entitled to piss on the street.

Or maybe some of these behaviors represent conduct which is more socially useful. And really, since even murder is nothing more than a manifestation of my freedom of expression (expression of a murderous intention), I believe the first amendment protects me from any and all criminal liability.

In fact, it entitles me to it.

Or, maybe these applications of logic are just insane. But, if the principles of the pro flag crowd prevail, these are the kinds of conclusions you're led to.

Maybe they ought to prevail so we can have all sorts of fun stuff happen.

I do like the social contract theory. I'm not so sure I buy into it though. I'm not so sure I like the terms and conditions or that it's really certain as to what they are lol

Sun, Oct. 30th, 2005 10:44 am (UTC)
dr_cayenne: Re: Hoping this is not a double post

If you're Andres Serrano, your piss is gold...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piss_Christ

(misplaced previous post somehow so I am deleting it)

Sun, Oct. 30th, 2005 10:17 pm (UTC)
phoam: Re: Hoping this is not a double post

Genius..

Tue, Nov. 1st, 2005 07:26 am (UTC)
cherryspecial: Re: Hoping this is not a double post

The first amendment gives you the right to:

1. Free Speech
2. Free Press
3. Free Assembly
4. To Petition grievances
5. Free practice of religion

None of those cover, in ANY scope, public urination. It does not say "freedom to express oneself through art". This is why you can't make a religion to smoke pot. It's why you can't publish a newspaper that urges people to assassinate the President.

I suggest before you make any further comments, you take a good look The Federalist Papers.

Hatred isn't an action. IN and of itself, it does nothing. It takes people to act on it. A symbol's meaning can change over time, and it's time people started to just accept that. The word gay didn't always mean homosexual, but we now accept that. The purple and gold rebel flag doesn't mean the bearer is a racist, and it's now time to accept this too.

Mon, Oct. 31st, 2005 10:24 pm (UTC)
phoam

How about a ban on FUBU (For Us By Us) or how about BET? Those are strictly black companies and discriminating against white people.

Tue, Nov. 1st, 2005 04:29 am (UTC)
phoam

..but oh no.. it's racist to be a realist.